The role of port terminals in the safe transportation of cargo - Sagree Chetty

The role of port terminals in the safe transportation of cargo - Sagree Chetty

[00:00:00] Kingsly: Hi, I am Kingsley and you're listening to Cargo Run Podcast, brought to you by Optimist. Every week I talk to exporters, importers, and industry professionals to uncover some of the most relevant challenges in the shipping and international trade industries. So stay with me for tips and tricks that will help you overcome your everyday transport cargo, damage claims, and be more profitable in your business.

[00:00:30] Kingsly: Good morning everyone. Welcome to yet another episode of the Cargo Rant podcast. Today our guest is Sagree Chetty. And Sri Chetty is the general manager for legal risk, compliance and regulatory at the Trans National Post Authority. Thank you very much, Sri, for making time to talk to us today. We are excited to share this platform with you today and a few things that we have put together so that we get to know more about you, about the job you do, but also about the transport the t.

[00:01:01] Kingsly: Port Terminal Authority. So Sagree, if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, what is your role, and help us to understand the difference between the t NPA and Port terminals.

[00:01:14] Sagree: Thank you so much Kinsley, and thank you for having me on Cargo Ranch. Like he indicated, I've been a international transport professional now for some time for the larger part of 20 years.

[00:01:26] Sagree: My most recent and longest role has been with that have been general manager, legal risk, compliance, and regulatory. For the Ports authority of South Africa, something quite unique about the ports authority in South Africa in comparison to the rest of the world. It manages nine commercial ports in South Africa.

[00:01:46] Sagree: and it's centrally managed while in other countries it's either like you'll get a single port that's managed by municipality or region. So it's quite a large portfolio and up until recently I have been managing the full legal. Portfolio the compliance portfolio covering like 120 pieces of legislation to get the operations running every day.

[00:02:11] Sagree: I deal with the risk profiling on base for the company and all transactions relative to the company. And then I also deal with the regulatory portfolio, but more important. . Prior to me joining T N P A I used to work for N Nissan South Africa and dealing with the Africa business for the automotive company, right?

[00:02:33] Sagree: And then I will very nicely tie into the port terminals in South Africa. And how the t n P fits into port terminals because I used to head up legal services and compliance for one of the largest terminal operators in South Africa. So that being the prelude I will delve into it. So to look at the port's authority of South Africa, it has all the land within the port environment in the nine ports under its care and custody.

[00:03:03] Sagree: So it's a very busy city on the water. Okay, so you have ports in Dubon, Richard Bay, east London, cooker, port Elizabeth, Mossel Bay, Cape Town, and Saldana. And there's a very small port in Port Noli and all of the land and all of the activity both on the water side, meaning the full waterside. When I say waterside, I mean from Anchorage all the way to birthing of a vessel, right?

[00:03:31] Sagree: And or. Land within the port falls into the can custody of the port's authority. So you have like multiple business units within the port's authority. It is responsible for the full service, navigational service meaning in South Africa. Any vessel commercial vessel calling into the country, it's compulsory pilotage so a ports authority marine pilot.

[00:03:56] Sagree: Will steer a vessel into the port, birth it, and steer a vessel out of the. It's very unique to South Africa. It's complicated waterways, so you have that distinction. So it's a very large marine fleet that T N P A has including helicopters because your pilots are loaded, very similar to Rotterdam, are loaded using aviation pilots.

[00:04:21] Sagree: So that's particularly interesting. So you have about 3,500 staff just working on the water side to bring in vessels and take out vessels every day. Wow, it's 24 7. Yeah, it's 24 7 ports. So there's a lot of activity on any given day and most of our ports are deep water. If you take the land side of it, the ports authority is the landlord.

[00:04:45] Sagree: It runs in a landlord ports authority model. So each tunnel operator, stevedoring, company diving, and a whole bunch of other people will lease out land from the ports authority and the type of land it leases out. is determined by the scale of operations. Naturally, your terminal operators being the primary or premium customers are there for long-term concessions, possibly for 25 years or more.

[00:05:13] Sagree: So terminal operators. To give you an indication T N P A has approximately 96 terminal operators in the country. Okay? 96. It's 96 and welcome to my role up until recently. I'll give you the numbers. There are 54 terminal operators in the Port of Durban about in the Port of Richards Bay around eight in East London.

[00:05:44] Sagree: One in two, sorry, two in the Port of coa, about 10 in the port of pe. Another 10 or so in, in Capeta. They're none in Mosel Bay. And in Sudan you have about four terminal operators. So T p t you have mentioned transplant port terminals. They are a state owned terminal operator, but off the 96 they run about 19.

[00:06:08] Sagree: The rest are run by private sector, so there's a huge contingency of private sector terminal operators in South Africa. . Interesting thing about South Africa is for the rest of the world longshoreman or stevedoring is done by the terminal operator, but in South Africa, given our economic situation, there's a separation between the stevedoring and the terminal operators.

[00:06:33] Sagree: Okay. So the vessel owner or the vessel can directly contract with stevedores or terminal can do it on their behalf. And the only reason Kingsley bring that up, Because it's very interesting when you deal with cargo damage where did the risk and liability occur? And I think that one would be particularly important for your audience.

[00:06:55] Sagree: And that's the reason why I wanted to highlight that particular uniqueness. Thank you very much for that. Your the share size of your team I can imagine you have an army of lawyers within your department. Can you please just give us an idea? Or how many legal practitioners you have working on your team?

[00:07:13] Sagree: Okay. Ley up until the end of November, I have exited Transnet. Alright. But up until recently the, there's a very huge legal component. We have what is called regional legal advisors. So the ports are divided into the Western Cape, Eastern Cape in. And then you have regional legal advisors, then you would have legal advisors per port, and then you would have legal advisors at a head office level.

[00:07:41] Sagree: Now the team so technically out of my entire team up until recently was made up of about 286 odd people. . Don't get alarmed. They're not all lawyers. Because we run a such a multidisciplinary business. Firefighting is an extreme important aspect within the ports environment, keeping the ports safe.

[00:08:06] Sagree: So of the 286 odd, about 180 firefighters, the residual are mainly health, safety, environmental professionals. Cuz you need a whole bunch. Of professionals in that nature, not only from a sustainability perspective, but to make sure our customers, all our clients, port users and the environment is safe and secure, both from a shipping and a land-based perspective.

[00:08:32] Sagree: Then we have compliance professionals, we have risk professionals. Because you're managing and having oversight of so many tunnel operators had chemical engineers and process safety engineers within the team, cuz you're dealing with commodities like liquid bulk, L N G L P G so lots of safety professionals of that nature.

[00:08:55] Sagree: To make sure, firstly, that every touchpoint, we keep the environment, people for floors safe and that people can actually do business in a sustainable, safe manner. I think those are the emphasis we all. , but you wanna do it in a fairly safe, secure our chief Harbormaster, rufuss la and his team place a lot of emphasis on how IMDG cargo is handled everybody has taken lessons out of the Beirut incident from a claims and liability perspective. So there's often testing and a lot of analysis done to make sure cargo safely enters in egresses each port and that commodity types and schedule substances are all monitored for safety.

[00:09:45] Sagree: Okay. These are all city ports as well. So you have that interface with large amounts of people quite close to like most ports in the world. It's very close to a city and you have dense habitation and the like,

[00:10:00] Kingsly: so it is interesting you bring that up because mo many of our listeners are cargo owners.

[00:10:06] Kingsly: So this could be individuals or companies that are shipping goods either to or from South Africa, and even some of them are transiting. Their goods from other countries, say for example, Zimbabwe through South Africa and eventually to the rest of the world. And one thing which is on always on top of their minds is how is the tmpa ensuring the safe passage of their goods?

[00:10:28] Kingsly: When is within the cost, when is within their custody or when is within one of the various port terminals that are under their control. So can you please just for the sake of our listeners, summarize for us how the port actually works? So I am an exporter from Zimbabwe. I put my containers together.

[00:10:47] Kingsly: It has been road hauled to dubon and what happens from there till when it gets loaded onto a vessel and eventually sails to rotter.

[00:10:57] Sagree: Perfectly fine. Love the question. Thanks Lee. As in South Africa, ports are centrally managed by the state and there's a particular entity called , national Ports Authority that manages ports.

[00:11:10] Sagree: Now we have very particular legislation which have. Because of my history with this particular legislation has become an expert in it, and it's called the National Ports Act. A large part of my role in the last 10 years was embedding that piece of legislation within the National Ports Authority and within South Africa within port users.

[00:11:31] Sagree: Now that particular piece of legislation governs how the Ports authority must protect shipping lines, cargo owners. Terminal operators and all port users, it sets the rules and regulations how that interface would happen. So for your cargo owner in Zimbabwe, that particular cargo owner will work with a freight forwarder, a road transporter, or a rail holier to bring their box they container to the port of Dban.

[00:12:01] Sagree: Those are, will be all back to back private contracts that they'll be running, that particular cargo owner will have to contract with the designated terminal operator. Like I said, they're 54 in the port of Durban so that cargo owner has choice. There's enough competition to get the best rate because that cargo owner, depending on the type of commodity, has 54 to choose from.

[00:12:27] Sagree: Okay. They would work. That particular contract and between the terminal operator and the cargo owner, the, so by way of example, if it was going to a dedicated container terminal and that particular container was going onto a cellular vessel, the opening stack time would be three days before the vessel called to get it into the theto.

[00:12:52] Sagree: The stock plan sta the stove plan area, and then it will be scheduled to, to. Be put on board a vessel and it will be dispatched out of the Port of Durban. Okay, now they are, let's just pause there a little bit. There are customs rules. Department of health, depending what the commodity is and the like, all things being equal, all of that would've been sorted out.

[00:13:18] Sagree: But generally when the box is in the key in custody of the terminal operator is obliged to, to make sure safe passage of that. However the ports authority gets involved, and I'll give you an example if that box was stolen from the tunnel operator. , if there was P fridge. If there was a fire, there was an incident, there was a strike.

[00:13:44] Sagree: For any of those incidents, the terminal operators obliged to tell the port's authority what transpired. And the reason for that is the port's authority has oversight of all the terminal operators. It plays the guardianship role to make sure that cargo is very efficiently and effectively leaving the country and entering the country in the quickest possible time.

[00:14:11] Sagree: You would've recently heard there's been some delays at one of the terminals in in Durban and. Backlogs on trucks egressing and entering on containers. So immediately a number of industry forums meets with that particular port sorry, terminal. The ports authority gets involved to find out what is causing the delays and what sort of joint operations can.

[00:14:38] Sagree: To reduce those kind of delay boxes remaining in a port is not moving the economy, it is not helping the cargo owner for us in Africa. And Kingsley, you would know what I mean by that, and I think your cargo owners and your audience would know. Time means money and for every bit of. If that box getting to its destination, there are several parties involved wanting to make business happen for every box.

[00:15:08] Sagree: We live in Africa. For every rand or dollar there are four or five people that draw down a living in Africa. Exactly. We really understand the need for being entrepreneur, entrepreneurial and moving things along. So that's where the Ports authority gets involved. But something that your audience will not know about is I was very involved in setting up the agreements between the tunnel operators and the Ports authority, and that was one of my first major projects when I joined t n P in 2011.

[00:15:42] Kingsly: Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:15:45] Sagree: Very interesting. So your cargo owners need to know this. Each of the tunnel operators have to sign a performance agreement with the port's authority. Okay? And every quarter they're monitored on the cargo throughput. How much of cargo. They push through over the key wall, either offloading the cargo or loading the cargo.

[00:16:09] Sagree: So th this is monitored in very detailed perspective. In South Africa, we have another regulatory body called the Ports regulator of South Africa that also monitors this. We live in the sudden gateway. Of Africa. We as a country find ourselves pairing up with a number of the neighboring countries, Mozambique, Botswana, Zambia.

[00:16:34] Sagree: And a number of other countries where we act as a coined for their cargo as well. It's very important not just for South African ports to work, but we enable this for other African countries as well that are landlocked and need that kind of cargo moving through safely. So in the last seven years, there's been much more emphasis on making sure that the terminal operators play their part and that ships.

[00:17:01] Sagree: The ship working time. So the amount of time a vessel is birthed at a key site is also monitored. There's a tolerance limit to how long that vessel must remain at a key to be loaded or discharged. So all of those stacks are publicly available. And that all helps in, in, in moving production along.

[00:17:24] Sagree: I hope that gives you better insight. It

[00:17:27] Kingsly: does. It does. And it actually sparks another question in my mind. So often in, in, in my previous life, we would handle cases on behalf of our customers for containers that have either been stolen from the port or maybe have been dropped and damaged within the port premises.

[00:17:47] Kingsly: And from what you are saying for the t the T N P A has oversight over these various signals and their performances. So what does that actually mean for the cargo owner? Does that mean that in the event of damage to the cargo, to their cargo within the port premises, they are at liberty to not only bring a claim against the particular terminal, but also escalated on to the T npa.

[00:18:18] Sagree: unfortunately the T N P A has a limitation of liability. The liability lies entirely with the terminal operator depending on the tire conditions you have with the with the terminal operator. Damage of car cargos due The D-rings, jamming, dropping of cargos from gantry cranes are sometimes quite common, especially in high, and heavy oversized containers.

[00:18:42] Sagree: And sometimes as you would be aware, cargo either gets wet cargo that doesn't need to get wet, gets wet or mixing of cargos. Now those claims should be handle. By the terminal operator. I know certain terminal operators have very set protocols as to how they handle claims. Some of them are self-insured others carry insurance.

[00:19:04] Sagree: So most of the terminal operators would have claims departments would deal with that. The port's authority deals with. Claims that would be that ports authority generally deals with is if the ports authorities tugs while bringing a vessel in or egressing a vessel. Damaged a vessel.

[00:19:24] Sagree: If during the navigation the vessel was damaged or some commodity was damaged, then I would deal with those type of claims. The biggest some of the biggest marine and shipping matters incidents I've dealt with over the years. I've dealt with burning vessels to sinking vessels to. to what is called in the insurance, marine insurance environment.

[00:19:47] Sagree: The great storm in Durban in that particular one I live managed will, it'll always be a precious moment in my life. , I can imagine held raising in that week. But when 10 Vessels allied, including a French naval vessel,

[00:20:06] Kingsly: ah, that was the m msc, I think it was msc, Susanna, or something like that.

[00:20:11] Sagree: The York mse, Susanna, the Valek and the in up closing the Port channel. The military vessel, I think the military vessel was from France, wasn't it? Or was it Torres? Okay, so you were involved in that

[00:20:32] Sagree: as well. Captain Brynn Adamson, and me as the head of business continuity management.

[00:20:39] Sagree: I remember sitting in the control room and going, we, our worst nightmare had just. Been blocked by the mse. Okay? And you have to make decisions. You have to make decisions. And it happens live. I was also involved in the MV Smart when that vessel Sanko Richard Sp there have a whole history of matters of that nature.

[00:21:03] Sagree: So I get very involved in those. It's been a phenomenal career. Coming back to cargo planes while wearing another hat. I used to head. legal and compliance for Transnet Port Terminals. It's one of the larger port terminals owners in South Africa. It owns about 19 terminals. It owns the four container terminals dedicated for container terminals in South Africa.

[00:21:31] Sagree: It owns a couple bulk facilities. and multipurpose and break bulk terminals. That's when my knowledge of cargo claims. It's hundreds and hundreds of cargo claims every day. All right. There a lot of systems. We are set up. . The one thing if you're dealing with T B T I had designed the much older terms and conditions for them and we in at the time.

[00:21:56] Sagree: I can't tell you exactly right now, but at the prevailing time, we set up a system of having special drawing rights, meaning if within their care and custody. Cargo was damaged. Then it tells you the formula and the mechanism to get paid. And that

[00:22:16] Kingsly: was, that was that different from what you'd find, say under the HIG vis B rules, which is 60, 66 0.67 special drawing rights or two special drawing rights based on very similar.

[00:22:28] Sagree: Very similar. So we tried to, I tried to bring what is called global uniformity to cargo owners. You're dealing with multiple cargo owners from multiple jurisdictions, multiple leaders and the like. And the whole idea was south African law and Roman Dutch law they may not be familiar with. And just going through a court process is in my, in foreign jurisdictions is onerous enough for cargo owners who are running businesses.

[00:22:55] Sagree: It's not, Ted, you and I both know running litigation in an international jurisdiction. It's not for the Ted.

[00:23:02] Kingsly: Certainly not that, that actually, that just a quick aside if I may, I would just like to digress a little bit, but because this is a, a topic that has come up over and over again as I engage with different experts on the continent.

[00:23:17] Kingsly: One thing which I've not been able to find an answer for is relating to what you've just said, so the applicability of international conventions particularly for the carriage of goods by sea. So in, in essence we've got Hag Hague, SBE Rules, Hamburg Rules, and Roland Rules Fraudulent Rules, which has not yet been widely adopted.

[00:23:38] Kingsly: but it comes to me as a surprise that many African countries and including South Africa as well, are signatories to hag or hate vis rules, which do not, at least from my point of view, in any way, benefit the African continent. It so it surprises me that first of all, under Behavior Bureau rules, you have a one year limitation period under which you have to bring a claim, or you lose every right to bring a claim, and then more so it empowers or it favors the carrier, such that if you were to go for legal actions, you would probably go.

[00:24:15] Kingsly: Two, either the head offices, which is out of Africa, or the choice of jurisdiction which would be either English. The London High Court and English law, which makes it very difficult then, or expensive, prohibitively expensive for African players to seek justice in these foreign courts. Do you have any reason why African countries are signatories to Hagan?

[00:24:37] Kingsly: Hevi still today?

[00:24:39] Sagree: That is such an amazing comment that you've made. Anna. Question a little bit about my history. I took it upon myself. I'm mainly self-taught and I've worked through south African customs. I've worked for, and I've consulted to the many large listed and non-listed companies in South Africa who are also in the port environment.

[00:25:01] Sagree: And as I hit as I approached my mid thirties, I started to have a calling about Africa and why we still playing to, to, to jurisdictional rules they don't support. Our environment. I'm going to use the word our right.

[00:25:19] Kingsly: Our rightly rightly and when I say that as. We have 54 countries in Africa.

[00:25:26] Sagree: We have different free trade agreements, the Sacco free trade agreement. We have the African Union, but we have not aggregated ourselves in such a fashion or manner to create something truly unique for ourselves. And I and the one thing that has bothered me and where I started, a large part of my calling is I lecture the master students at the University of the Northwest and I do it as pro bono and my students are all.

[00:26:00] Sagree: Students from all over Africa, I decided to do something paid forward, and do something of that nature, . And that's the one question, hopefully we, I'd get enough students, enough thought leadership out there that in our different sectors or quadrants, we try to change the thought leadership pattern and Africa would change.

[00:26:21] Sagree: And the thing that bothers me most, That even though we have these regulatory bodies of saku free trade agreements and we have the African Union, Africa doesn't have a single multimodal document that we could use, that we could own, we could create our own rules, understanding our African environment, the way we do business, and our unique aspects, transporting girls.

[00:26:49] Sagree: to Europe from by way. For example, AVAP or Rotterdam or something like that. Onto a truck, a refrige refrigerated truck, and off it goes onto a premier highway. It's not the same thing as transporting a box from Durban to by fridge and then to za. Our environmental conditions, just the manner in which we operate is fairly different.

[00:27:14] Sagree: And I know you're smiling. I don't have my camera on camera. . You resonate with something. You resonate with something I said. So I'll pause here and give you an opportunity.

[00:27:24] Kingsly: Yeah. The reason I'm smiling at the, unfortunately the audience won't be able to see this, is because you, it is like you're taking the words out of my mouth.

[00:27:32] Kingsly: So I recently had a conversation. With Walle from ins. He's one of the partners from ins in Singapore. And we had this conversation about, about similar issues on the African continent and we were speaking about the same things. I find it hard to believe that.

[00:27:49] Kingsly: We have gone through so much as a people and right now there is this awakening amongst the various countries in Africa, knowing that our strength lies in our unity as a people. It is only when we come together and then we start passing legislation that protects the interest of Africa.

[00:28:09] Kingsly: Can we be able to move the needle in our favor? It is quite astonish. if I may, to see that you have a problem with, let's say a company in Zimbabwe and a counterpart or a carrier in South Africa. And or let's say you're moving copper from Congo down to, to, to Durban.

[00:28:33] Kingsly: And then whenever there's an issue. You have to go to the London High Court to, to seek reds. I think it is bonkers. For you and your students at Poro I think you guys will do the continent a very huge favor. If you can de develop much thought leadership around this area to give us reasoning and or to give the leaders reasonings why.

[00:29:00] Kingsly: It is important for Africa first to get its own, to get a a unifying law, which governs the transportation of goods within Africa, but also to set up departments within the aeu or within our African courts, which would be able, should have competence to hear this type of matters.

[00:29:22] Kingsly: Yeah. Kus to you guys, and I think that is a very commendable work that you guys

[00:29:28] Sagree: are doing. , thank you for that. The other significant element you would've noticed is I commend the Singaporean and Malaysian marine lawyers he and I clubs and other insurance professionals dealing with claims because they were able to very vigorously.

[00:29:50] Sagree: set up a niche in, in, in Malaysia. Currently all your underwriters, all your p and i clubs sit in the Northern Hemisphere King. So you know that Yes. And very little work agency work occurs in, in Africa, which is problematic. So you only you get. Of good work, that kind of thing.

[00:30:15] Sagree: And hopefully over, over a period of time that work can be done in Africa. I'm gonna go a little bit off track. It's amazing when you look at the map of the world. Tylenol, placebo,

[00:30:37] Sagree: karaoke, placebo

[00:30:48] Sagree: clubs, and the like. Set up a larger presence in, in Africa and allow. Most of us to participate in that work. The knowledge base is there and I think we've groomed enough young people for taking that leadership into the future.

[00:31:06] Kingsly: I couldn't agree with you. Agree with more with you more.

[00:31:10] Kingsly: I agree. I think you've just I hit the nail on the head. I do believe though that, that there has been progress. Certainly not fast enough. But I remember when, 14 years ago when I first joined this industry many of the things that we have become used to on the continent as far as shipping and related activities are concerned.

[00:31:31] Kingsly: I, I think in a way you can say that there has been progress, but in other ways. And I'm talking here about. South Africa used to have a liner where South Marine no longer exists, has been bought over by, by, by Maersk. There used to be some really strong activity, particularly coming from Southern Africa, which, you know one could say from an African perspective there was much activity, but.

[00:31:57] Kingsly: In other ways. When you look at, for example Syria, Leon, he has one of the largest registries, ship registries in the world. And if I may, I know I'm digressing now quite a bit. Does this benefit Africa in any way? Do

[00:32:15] Sagree: you. having a ship registry definitely does benefit Africa.

[00:32:21] Sagree: South Africa has, for the last five or six years, tried to give incentives to increase the flagging of vessels, sh vessel registrations in South Africa, but the uptake hasn't been high enough. But that just the fact that Sierra Leon has done that creates. service industry, it creates professionals to, to buy into that.

[00:32:46] Sagree: And I think it's a good start. A lot more African countries should be doing that. South Africa's lost quite a bit of its fleet. It's short shipping roots and the like. And as in my mean, my history, I've done work in Africa and I've done quite a bit of technical papers.

[00:33:06] Sagree: We in Africa are serviced at most by five, five global sh shipping lines. So you also stuck, you don't have that much competition. I do accept that. In Africa, we far down south. The Northern Hemisphere does have a higher population rate and buying power is in the northern hemisphere and bunker costs.

[00:33:29] Sagree: To travel to the south and pass the Cape horn is quite con Enormous. However, if there is considerable cargo flows, we still as a continent have not optimized using bricks. I don't believe we, we fully have optimized and used the bricks initiative to the fullest. there are opportunities both from flagging of vessel ships registry.

[00:33:55] Sagree: All of these enablers are very much what I would call supply side economics. , if you have efficient supply side initiatives, you build an industry, you build a community, you build expertise, and you drive the economy forward.

[00:34:11] Kingsly: Thank you very much for that. And lemme just bring you back towards the transit portal authority.

[00:34:17] Kingsly: At the beginning of our conversation, you indicated that there are nine terminals which are overseen by the T N P A are. It is my understanding that some of these terminals are a specialist or are specialized s that could focus on containerized cargo, or cargo or a combination of both.

[00:34:35] Kingsly: Can you just give us an indication of the these various terminals and perhaps how

[00:34:42] Sagree: they function? Thank you. So the country has about 96 terminal operator. 96 and we'll round our TBT has about 20 terminals and the rest are in the hands of private sector, different companies, either local or global.

[00:34:58] Sagree: So the sector types that South Africa has, it has bulk terminals. We have an Iron O terminal in Salana that's moving over, I think 30 million tons of IO per. , okay. That through the country. So you've got IOE and manganese leaving through there. There's multipurpose terminals in, in, in Soldan, including an L P G facility, and most recently there's a facility operated dealing with the oil and gas industry.

[00:35:31] Sagree: So those are significant enablers for anybody interested in the oil and gas. Environment to be setting up in Sina in Cape Town you have a dedicated container terminal, so all your cellular vessels supporting the fruit industry and the like, goes through the TB t terminals. You have ship repair facilities out there, ship building facilities, multipurpose terminals, quite a bit of liquid bulk in L P G terminals and the like.

[00:35:57] Sagree: So it's quite a varied port. Moving on to Mossel Bay, it deals with, it's mainly supporting the oil and gas industry in Mossel. in pe it's in the most supporting the automotive sector in South Africa. And that will be your general motors, your VWs, and the like. So it's all right in the main, your automotive sector with some manganese and the like moving through and fruit and the like as you move to cooker.

[00:36:27] Sagree: It's a totally dedicated containerized facility. . Okay. So it's dealing with mts full containers and trans shipments as we move to Eastland. Once again, huge support of the motor industry and specific Mercedes, I think you're familiar with that. It's multi terminal out there, which deals with some container cargo.

[00:36:51] Sagree: And then as we travel up the coastline we stop at Durban, like I said, 54 terminals. , it's, I love it. It's my home. And it's a city on the water every day. You have everything from liquid bulk facilities, meaning you have break bulk with west tunnels handles some manganese.

[00:37:14] Sagree: In the Port of Durban, you have a full fledged liquid bulk facilities, loads of tankage that dealing with the petroleum. Petrol crude oil diesel sector. You also have another assisted division from Transnet running a pipeline all the way from the port of Durban all the way to Ang, and that moves petroleum products on a 600 kilometer line.

[00:37:39] Sagree: Most interesting. Wow. Wow. Yeah. That's particularly interesting. You're moving fuel from the coastline and 600 kilometers all the way in inland. And some of that fuel goes into Africa as well by a rail. So it's actually quite lots of multipurpose terminals, dedicated car terminals. So you do have a massive variety in the Port of Durban.

[00:38:02] Sagree: So there's considerable choice for cargo owners. There's enough competition in most of the sector types in Richards Bay. It's a deep water port. You're moving coal, dedicated coal tunnels out of Richards Bay. I think that's about 70 million rounds worth of p going through every day.

[00:38:24] Sagree: You have dry and break bulk cargo leaving to Richards Bay. It's a highly industrialized port. It's just moving. Cape size vessels every day in and out of the port. It's an amazing port, the Port of Bridges bay.

[00:38:38] Kingsly: It is quite refreshing. The amount of knowledge that you have on this mammoth of an operation going around the ports in, in, in South Africa.

[00:38:47] Kingsly: Just in, in South Africa and your other major economies around the world the pandemic has been, . Yeah. It has been an awakening for many of us from the United States where delays within the port has increased largely because either a high demand in consumer goods and uh, low supply in consumerized in shipping containers.

[00:39:14] Kingsly: I want to find out from a South African perspective many industries have had to adapt very quickly to new ways of doing, of using technology to enhance the way they work. You've just given us a very elaborate description of the network within the Port Authority in South Africa.

[00:39:33] Kingsly: I just want to find out from the port perspective, what are some of the innovations that are either currently existing or that are in the pipeline that. Particularly cargo owners should look forward to. Is there anything you can think about? Yes.

[00:39:49] Sagree: I'm not sure you, but you might have heard about it.

[00:39:52] Sagree: So I I think t and the Port's authority and the terminals handled the pandemic fairly well. As a ports authority, we had to implement initiatives and guide the porter the terminals as to how to safely, especially at the start of the pandemic how to safely operate the ports.

[00:40:14] Sagree: And we are very proud to say that in the first year of the pandemic, the one thing that occurred is the ports were still fully functional. Okay. The ports were fully functional. We had an amazing government in the sense that they regarded the ports central facilities and there was enough support from legislation even during lockdowns to support the ports and keep them open, but to do so safely.

[00:40:38] Sagree: I think that what affected port users more than the pandemic. was a cyber attack on Transnet. Which I think that affected Transnet more than the actual pandemic. I think the recovery from the pandemic was easier. The cyber attack has, will have long-term effects. A T N P A had introduced this major port community system and invested quite a bit of capital and the like to manage its port community system meaning cargo owners, port users, shipping lines, and the entire port community can actually track where the vessel is.

[00:41:21] Sagree: Focus a select, and the whole system operated for the op cargo operations happening as effortlessly and transparently as possible. You couldn't jump the queue like that, but with the cyber attack, that system has been taken down and translates basically trying to implement new systems.

[00:41:41] Sagree: So I'm sure we, we'd all expect some exciting times from Transnet going forward. From a technology perspective, I think I would, one thing I've, if I had to give my previous employer some suggestions is they should be some sort of mandatory booking systems from a trucking perspective. Poly is, so that ERs are not waiting because the waiting time causes undue financial burden on hollier in, in the main, given a high unemployment rate in South Africa.

[00:42:14] Sagree: A lot of the ERs are single business owners so for them having to be, wait. And losing money or standing in, in a trucking queue for hours and end is not productive for them, and it, it burns up money on their side. So having very efficient booking systems would be something that would be very important.

[00:42:36] Sagree: It

[00:42:37] Kingsly: I think I think that there's I think there's certainly lessons to be learned, especially when you talk about, Central booking system. Yesterday I was talking to some of the directors of the port Authority in Morocco. And I learned about port net. And what they have done really is they have realized what you're just talking about, this central system that is by the port and is providing services to various parties, including the international trade themselves, straightforward as the banks and so on.

[00:43:11] Kingsly: And so, Ports. So to share data, make it easy for companies to be able to book, move and move their goods with from within the port. So I think there's certainly something to be learned from your counterparts or from their counterparts up, up north. Sang I don't know if you heard about the trade lengths this was a blockchain highway between.

[00:43:34] Kingsly: Meers and ibm and they have been looking at connecting ports around the world together with shipping lines for the secure and easy transfer of information about cargo, which has been moved from point A to point B. Have you, in your time did you come across this application or this

[00:43:57] Sagree: platform?

[00:43:59] Sagree: I have been in my own personal capacity, have been very curious about trade lands and have been following it in the sense that I find that most interesting. Because it's taken this port community system or an electronic data exchange system to another level. So I find that most interesting, but I'm not aware of that being followed through within Transnet.

[00:44:24] Sagree: Okay. Find trade lands very interesting. I think technology will play a huge part. We go forward and how we contract and negotiate with each other going forward. So for me, I find those elements most optimistic. I am optimistic about it and I'm following it with a very keen. sense of urgency?

[00:44:45] Sagree: I

[00:44:45] Kingsly: think I agree with you. I think technology pre presents to Africa an opportunity just telephony or mobile phones and telephony things actually changed for us because Africa was lagging the world when it came to communication because you had to dig up. Kilometers and kilometers of phone lines just for communication to happen.

[00:45:05] Kingsly: And then the mobile phone came along. And then the penetration across Africa is quite high. And if you look at, say for example, more payments, Africa is leading the rest of the world. I think this could be another opportunity. This could be an op, another opportunity where poor terminals.

[00:45:21] Kingsly: In on the African continent can rely on technology to leapfrog some of the bottlenecks and challenges that are even existing in the western world. And then build upon that to provide really fantastic services to those that are trading within and with Africa. So this has brought us to the end of our conversation today and I will be remiss if I don't ask you, given the wealth of experience that you've amassed working within the T N P A and the Transnet and other organizations within the South, within the South African public service, I just wanted to find out what's next for you.

[00:46:01] Kingsly: S

[00:46:02] Sagree: what's next? I'm exploring different opportunities and I'm open to exploring different opportunities that are presented to me at this stage. I think it was a time for me to pause. I have a lot of knowledge and let's see how I can benefits the continent and my, my, my profession in industry.

[00:46:23] Sagree: Going forward, I'd like to partner with the correct team going forward to to harness that knowledge and expertise and take it forward, open to,

[00:46:35] Kingsly: so there you have it. Then just for those that are listening for those that you know, would want to take advantage of the wealth of.

[00:46:42] Kingsly: From Sri. Sri, is it okay for me to share your email with everyone else? Or is, or should I just ask them to get in touch if they needed to get in touch with you?

[00:46:52] Sagree: No, it's fine. My LinkedIn email address is there. Okay,

[00:46:56] Kingsly: fantastic. So once this our conversation goes live we'll have a link to your LinkedIn.

[00:47:02] Kingsly: We'll also have your email address so that for those that are listening in for the companies that are looking to do business in Africa, for those that need consultation around the functionings of ports, particularly in South Africa of the movement of goods between South Africa and other parts of the African continent.

[00:47:19] Kingsly: Sri is your good to girls, so do not hesitate to get in touch with her. Thank you very much, Sri, for joining us on. This episode of the Cargo Run Podcast and it has been a pleasure for me and I'm looking forward to talking to you again very soon.

[00:47:32] Sagree: It's been an absolute pleasure, Kingsley. All the best.

[00:47:35] Sagree: Thank

[00:47:35] Kingsly: you. This has been Cargo Rant Podcast brought to you by OPTIMIZ. If you've suffered damage to your cargo run transit, get in touch on Hello at Optimist Claims for your digital cargo inspection and claims automation solution. Join us again next week for more tips and tricks from seasoned industry experts.

[00:47:56] Kingsly: Thanks for listening. I am Kingsley and I've been your host on Cargo Run podcast.